Importing PNG files

[Rusty_Stumps]

I have need for fairly fine cutting and have done most of my work in the past with AutoSketch. The only file type I can import into Sure Cuts A Lot are PNG files.
I brought one in and everything appears there but it looks different than what I've seen so far in the tutorials. Yes, first time trying to do a job on the Silver Bullet. I have been using a Epilog Laser for the past 17 years but sold it off.
I tried a WYIWYG print using the pen. My file was in the paper was in the upper left hand corner as was the drawing on the mat in Sure Cuts a Lot. When it ran a vertical line was drawn up the paper and past it edge. There were no lines in the drawing that way.
My question is to anyone that might also be using PNG imported files to cut with and what have you done to get them to work?
Thanks,
Walt

[Gigi]

Hi Walt -

You haven't given a lot of info to go on, but let me ask you a few questions. I have a lot of them!

1. Have you registered the software? It will cut lines through everything until it is registered.
2. You talk about importing a png file. But you don't say anything about tracing it. You don't actually have to import the image - you can just choose "Trace Image" and you will get a pop up window that then allows you to trace your image (either completely or just outline) and then save the image and cut file to the mat. Are you doing that?
3. This has me confused. "I tried a WYIWYG print using the pen. My file was in the paper was in the upper left hand corner as was the drawing on the mat in Sure Cuts a Lot. When it ran a vertical line was drawn up the paper and past it edge. There were no lines in the drawing that way." I don't know what you mean when you say you tried a WYSIWYG using the pen. Do you mean you are trying to draw the image with the pen tool? In that case you need to do a full vector trace of the image first. Not knowing what size of paper you were using or the mat, it is possible that you have it placed out of the cutting area. Screen shots would help. What size is your image and what are you attempting to do. You could be out of range but I cannot tell without seeing it. And I am not sure if you are trying to draw the image or cut the image.

4. When you say the only file you can import into SCAL are png files I am also confused as SCAL can import a WIDE variety of files. Do you mean that the only files you have that are compatible are png files as you can import ai, eps, svg, dxf, pdf, jpg and on and on. I just mentioned a very few. Again , more information would be helpful.

5. Again , if you can show screen shots of your virtual mat in the software and start there, it might help us all understand what you are trying to accomplish. With sizes and details it is difficult to envision where the exact problem is.

6. You said you looked at tutorials. Are you finding those online or are you going through the learning center classroom. When you say what you have looks different than what you are seeing in the tutorials, how does it look different.

Thats it for now - the more information you can share the more we can help. You can also upload a file here or send it to me if you are having difficulty with what you have/are creating.

[Rusty_Stumps]

1. Yes the software is registered.

2. I expected SCL to use the file imported not to have to trace it. All other software I've used both on the Epilog laser and a Circut Machine did just that.

4. The importing is from AutoSketch a CAD program. The only compatible output from it to SCL is the PNG files.

5. I manufacture both high end 3D printed detailing parts for modelers and also building kits in scale. Scales are mainly 1:87, 1:64 and 1:48. The accuracy of dimensions is critical thus the reason I use a CAD program for the initial design work. The SCL screen is not to that level.

6. Yes, I am going through the Online tutorial videos. I'd rather printed docs but you use what you get.

I was caught in a tight situation as I had a kit to get out to a customer and needed 1:87 scale simulated shake shingles cut. I could do these on the Circut Maker by importing the file from CorelDraw but I have that packed up as it's been sold. Trying to draw this in SCL would be extremely tedious as there are hundreds of lines. The cut sheets are 4.25" x 6" approx with rows and rows of the shingles. These are cut on an construction paper that has a adhesive backing with a protective sheet. Also found the protective sheet won't stick to the SB mat so the adhesive would have to be added after the cutting. Starting to miss the Epilog laser cutter already. [grin]

My other intended use is to cut stripwood from thin sheets of basswood. Again denominational accuracy is important here and the use of a CAD program makes it much easier.

What I'm starting to realize that the Silver Bullet is more a high end Crafter's machine. I had hoped it was more closer to my manufacturing needs.

[MeFlick]

Hi Walt and welcome to the Silver Bullet forum. Like with any of us, when switching between hardware and software, there is a bit of a learning curve. You noted that the file you are trying to work with is being imported from Autosketch, a CAD program. You also noted that while working with the Cricut Maker, you imported the file from CorelDraw. You note that Autosketch will only let you export out to a PNG file, but you don't note what file format you were taking from CorelDraw and importing into the Cricut Maker software. Why were you using Autosketch with one and CorelDraw with the other? Do you still own CorelDraw? (I would assume you do as it is not transferable.) CorelDraw has many formats that you can export out from including SVG files which would be the best to export and import into SCAL for cutting purposes. Do you have all your files in Coreldraw? If so, what file formats do you have available through there? You should be able to take something from CorelDraw to SCAL directly.

First, let's start with the basics, forgive me if I get too basic but I want to make sure we are all on the same page - all cutting machines that I know of (previously and presently) - need to work with "vector" cutting lines in order to cut out an image. So, even if you thought you were importing and not tracing with the Cricut machine - it was doing the "tracing" automatically for you if you were choosing to import a "basic" image to their program. ("Basic" being a .jpg, .gif, .png, and .bmp file types (according to Cricut's own information.) These "basic" file formats are "raster" images and do not have the information needed to "cut" with. So, if you are importing one of these basic raster formats, the Cricut software was simply doing the trace automatically around the outside of the image and creating a "cutting" line or a "vector" line to use for cutting. SVG files are "scalable vector graphics." They can be created with a lot of different programs for various needs. Their original intent was for use for onscreen displays so they could easily be resized. For the cutters, those lines are the cutting lines that the cutter "sees" to cut the image out. They are easily "scaled" as needed up or down without becoming distorted in size and shape like the "Basic" file types will. A "PNG" file is a "portable network graphics" file. It is a "raster" file. A raster file does not contain cut lines that can be read by a cutter and its program for cutting with a cutter. No raster format file does. So in order to use a "raster file" - it has to be "traced somewhere somehow in order for a cutter to be able to cut it out. So if you were importing a PNG file into the Cricut Maker software, it was being traced even if you didn't realize it.

Now, I will note that I have not used a Cricut cutter or their software in a long time as it was the most basic of the basics and did not support using outside files until the release of 3rd party software programs like SCAL and others that came on the market. They wanted to lock users into their images and cartridges that held those images. Then when the 3rd party software came out, they tried to stop it by suing them to keep them from working with their machines. Some they sued multiple times. Eventually, other cutters and their programs started allowing for "import" into their programs, so Provocraft reluctantly went along. However, in my experience, and in watching the market, they still have typically done so reluctantly, and their programs are some of the worst ones out there to use so I have continued to not use their products (I used their first 3 machines before seeing the light and moving on.) However, even though I have not used them directly recently, I do stay abreast of what is going on with them. So, that said - I feel that I do have the basic knowledge of their systems and know how they work for the most part still. In addition, all cutters work the same basic way, with the same basic info - they need "vector" lines to cut. They have to get those vector lines somehow - either by doing an automatic trace or a manual trace if the file being imported does not already contain those vector lines for cutting.

Again, specifically what Online Tutorials are you referring to? There are lots of tutorials and information out there on the use of SCAL, some are pretty old and deal with an older version of SCAL so they may "look different" then what you are seeing if they are using an older version as changes have continued to be made. We can't help much more there without seeing or knowing exactly what you are looking at. Unfortunately, most every software I know if has gone to online information over printed form - mostly due to cost.

I am not familiar with Autosketch its self. I did some basic searching and see that it is discontinued as of about 3 years ago and no longer supported. I understand the pain there, I hate it when my favorite programs are no longer supported and it has happened to a few. But, if this is the case - I would recommend that you try to get all of your needed files out of Autosketch and into a flexible format that can be used with a variety of different programs. SVG is probably the best format for that. Almost every program I know of from low end to high end will support importing SVG files. In addition, SVG files when done correctly, are very accurate and well done for cutting needs. What I did read also said that you could export out of Autodesk as a DXF (Design Exchange Format) file. So another option is to use the DXF format. Gigi said SCAL supports importing DXF files or there is a free program, Inkscape, which will import DXF files and convert the file to SVG and then import that SVG file into SCAL. Yes, it adds another step to your process, but allows you to not trace the file in order to get it into a cuttable format. Since Inkscape is free, its probably worth giving it a try and seeing if it can work for you.

Also, you noted that the protective sheet won't stick to the SB mat so that adhesive would need to be added. I am curious, did it stick to the Cricut Maker's mat or did you add adhesive there as well? All cutters that I am aware of, unless cutting something with its own backing like vinyl, need to use a mat as a "carrier" to carry the media through the cut and support it. I assume when cutting, you are cutting all the way through that protective sheet as well? If so, then you would need a mat, if not, it could potentially serve as your "backing" or "carrier" mat. You can use painter's tape to tape things down on the mat so that it is well adhered and will cut without adding sticky. I use it all the time.

As far as the random line being drawn that was not there, if your pen is sitting to low in the holder, you can get a random line when the cutter had is moving. Could this perhaps be it?

I am curious, you got rid of your Epilog laser and the Cricut Maker - can I ask why you got rid of each of those? My dream is to one day have an Epilog laser but I "dabble" in a lot of crafts and things and I just think it would be a cool tool to have in the shop. I assume you got rid of the Cricut Maker because it didn't do the job that you needed done? If so, what was the issues you encountered with it that didn't work for you?

Finally, as I already noted - I am a "dabbler" in many types of crafts and projects. We have a CNC machine that use Vectric software with, I use a scroll saw and a band saw to create other wooden projects, I have multiple cutters, that I use multiple programs with, I have a heat press and do sublimation work along with vinyl work to name just a few so as I like to say, I am a jack of all trades, master of none, but I do usually understand most of the basics needed to work with a variety of machines. As a result, I have Adobe products and CorelDraw in my arsenal as well. I have learned that there is usually more than one way to "skin the cat" but sometimes it requires us to go outside of our comfort zone to do so. The one thing I have found is that almost all of these programs now support the use of SVG files.

In regards to the "thin sheets" of basswood you want to cut. Have you tried to cut any? How "thin" is "thin" - will you be able to run it under the pinch wheels of the machine? Is it thin enough to fit in the opening of the machine? What I have found over the years with basswood is that the thinner it is, the more fragile it is and I wonder about it holding together and cutting for you. I will be interested in hearing if you have gotten it to work.

As far as the SB being a "high end" crafter's machine - yes, it is sold to a lot of crafters, me being one of them. I have used a variety of different cutters over the years (More than 13 years now I believe) and it is one of the best machines on the market for a variety of work. However, I don't know that I would call it a "high end crafter's machine.) While I use it more as a "crafter's" machine, there are others who use it more in a "manufacturing" mode and use it to create and cut some tiny, intricate items from a variety of media that has amazed me over the years. Is it for everyone, no. Does it work with every program, no but no machine does. Does it work with every media out there, no. That is why I would suggest to anyone that is looking at one or any cutter, to make sure it does what you need to do BEFORE getting rid of any other software and/or machine that you have that do the work for you. Send in sample test files, materials and get someone to see if they will work with that program and machine if possible. I know that Sherri has done that for people in the past because she wants them to know that it will work for their needs and I know she has previously told people that it will not work for their needs. Better to have no sale then an unhappy customer. Did you talk to her about your needs before buying? Send her samples of your files and media you wished to work with?

[Gigi]

1. Yes the software is registered.

Good. Then as Melanie suggests, it could be that your tool is too close to the mat. I would still like to see screen shots.

2. I expected SCL to use the file imported not to have to trace it. All other software I've used both on the Epilog laser and a Circut Machine did just that.

Melanie already explained this very well, but I will reiterate what she said. You need a vector file to cut or draw and no machine takes a jpg and png and draws or cuts without converting it to a vector file. She explained it thoroughly so I won't repeat.

4. The importing is from AutoSketch a CAD program. The only compatible output from it to SCL is the PNG files.

I also did a search for AUTOCAD export files and they also can export dxf and eps. I know for a fact as I have imported both that you can use eps or dxf files. The regular version of SCAL 5 will import eps files; the PRO version of SCAL 5 will import dxf files - so I woudl think either would make it much easier for you than starting with a png file. This would give you vector files immediately. You shouldnt need Inkscape as an intermediary program, but you could always use it if you needed to edit or do more detailed work that you couldn't do in SCAL or preferred not to. Lots of options. And since you say you used Corel Draw with AutoCad, you can also use that with the Silver Bullet. If you have a cdr file, you can import it directly into SCAL as well and even send it directly to SCAL through Corel Draw (without exporting and importing) by downloading the plug in for Corel Draw on the craftedge site.

5. I manufacture both high end 3D printed detailing parts for modelers and also building kits in scale. Scales are mainly 1:87, 1:64 and 1:48. The accuracy of dimensions is critical thus the reason I use a CAD program for the initial design work. The SCL screen is not to that level.

We have quite a few users on here that have used/are using Auto Cad and have found effective ways to make things work. You might do a search on the forum to see what others have done - just an additional thought.


6. Yes, I am going through the Online tutorial videos. I'd rather printed docs but you use what you get.

I understand. I like printed material as well but the majority of customers prefer videos so that is what we offer. When it comes down to it, if someone can actually see how to do a particular function, it prevents a lot of user error as they can more easily "see" the difference in what they are doing and how it should/could be done. But many things are written on here how to best do something so again, you can search a topic and you might find exactly what you are looking for.


What I'm starting to realize that the Silver Bullet is more a high end Crafter's machine. I had hoped it was more closer to my manufacturing needs.

I bristle a little when I hear a comment like that. For those of us who ARE crafters, then yes, this is a high end crafting machine. But it is NOT only that by any means. Look at the companies using the Silver Bullet - Johnson & Johnson, MIT, Disney, Medtronic, Boeing, NASA, etc. This is MUCH MORE than a crafting machine.

Melanie addressed just about everything else. So please review what both of us have shared as I believe you have missed a few options that may make your work much easier. We never recommend having to be on a tight schedule with a customer when learning this machine as there is a learning curve and it takes time. I understand that life happens and you have to do what you have to do. But perhaps now you can take the time you need to understand a little better how best to get the results that you need from this machine. I have every confidence that you will get there.

We are here if you need additional support.

[Rusty_Stumps]

Too much in the responses to answer everything here. I do appreciate them.

As to AutoSketch. Doesn't matter that it's not supported by the AutoCAD any longer it still works and does the job.

As to to using the Circut Maker, newest model out with many improvements it's far more than any of the other models they sell or have sold. More of an XY plotter. Software has also been upgraded a lot and it will take DXF files but not the ones output by AutoSketch (older version) thus the reason for CorelDraw exporting the DXF file. The Circut Maker is not a heavy duty machine and on cutting basswood you have to guess at a lot. Has issues with going back and re cutting a line, to get through the thickness,doesn't line up properly. Thus my reason for going with the Silver Bullet Pro unit.

I exported a PNG file from CorelDraw and imported that into the SCAL V5. The image as far as I could tell is not editable. Also it didn't size correctly.
On test run with the pen it wasn't going correctly. Someone suggested tracing but that brings in broken line file with no way to edit as far as I can see.

As to the Crafter comment, the SCAL software leans very heavy in that direction. As the only interface to the SB it's what you deal with only. Both the Circut Maker and the Epilog laser equipment take files from any software that can send the print files they handle. Thus some users use different programs for this use. On the Epilog AutoSketch is great but many people also use Corel Draw and other products. I don't have the Epilog here to say what file types it uses but they are typical across that type of machine. The imports to the SCAL software are definitely slanted towards the crafter side. Maybe there are quite a few using the machine for manufacturing but the instructions and videos are not including those uses.

[Rusty_Stumps]

Had this all typed and lost it. Gads... [grin]

The Circut Maker is a totally upgraded machine and nothing like the old ones. It imports many types of files including the DXF from CorelDraw. Not the DXF from the AutoSketch as that's an older verision. Issue there was cutting basswood needed multiple passes and the machine did not line up correctly for the second pass.

The protection sheet is a bit glossy and is made to release the adhesive that is applied with it. I then used construction paper, type used in schools. When I tried to remove it it stripped apart and I had to scrape the surface to remove what I could. Still have more to clean up. The SB Tutorials show craft paper being used and I figured this would work as well. Bad guess.

As to the basswood. I was looking to cut 1/32", 3/64" and 1/16" thick sheets into stripwood. I have a lot of sheets on hand as my oldest son makes it for me. I've even thought of doing complete cutting of parts for some kits. Only angle cuts, no curves. Other heavier thicknesses would be cut on my Proxon table saw.

I'm 76 and retired. I run this company for extra income. I sold off 2/3 rds. of the company in the past two years and thus didn't need the large Epilog laser unit. I've been at this 19 years. I have been into micro computers since the beginning and built my first computer with 5,000 solder joints. Invented many items for the computers and sold they through Heath Kit which was the manufacture of my early computers. When I sold my printing company they hired me as editor of their monthly computer magazine. I've been at all levels in the computer field and retired after I had a business partnership with Seagate Software where I had many certifications in training and consulting. Thus the reason I'm fairly comfortable with computers. Even hosted my own company website here on a server for a good number of years. I also have been involved in the graphics field as the printing company I owned was heavy in graphic design and I had one of the earliest digital typesetters. I also worked and many levels in the graphics field for other companies mainly in training or management levels including computer systems manage.

I got rid of the Epilog mainly because I had little need for it and a lot of money rapped up in a unit just sitting there. The Circut Maker, as I said, just didn't meet my needs. My main thing now is high end 3D printing. I have two SLA liquid resin machines running quite a bit. We ship all over the World. This company is run out of our home with just the wife and I doing all the work. I do most all the 3D CAD design work as well as the 2D stuff for flat cutting. I design, manufacture, write the instruction manuals, print and bind, package and ship all out of our living room. [laugh]. Oh, the dining room is my wife's are and has shelving with product and raw materials. I also do silicone molds and poured resin as some items aren't suitable for 3D printing. I've only giving you the highlights as my background is quite extensive including being promoted from the plant, a multi-spindle lathe operator to the engineering department at Parker Hannifin Corp., don't have a college degree and no drafting training but I designed products and they even had me do all the architectural design and drafting for seven new plants they built. I do tend to be versatile.

[Gigi]

I am only going to comment on the Corel Draw reference as I have used that software. You cannot edit a png or jpg file in SCAL - but you can edit it in Corel Draw. I suggest editing it as you wish in Corel Draw and then convert it to an svg or cdr by tracing it and then either exporting as svg and importing into SCAL or downloading the plug in and send the cdr directly from Corel Draw to SCAL. You should also go to the Edit>Preferences option in SCAL if using a Corel Draw file and change the SVG DPI to Corel Draw (you will see the dropdown options) For normal files the inkscape selection should be used.

And you can edit a trace in SCAL that you have done there. Perhaps as I said above, you should do all of that with Corel Draw for now until you are more comfortable using SCAL. As I said earlier, SCAL software can import a WIDE variety of file formats without issue. And as you can see, we have many manufacturing companies using their files without issue.

I suggest you take a little more time to think about some of our suggestions and find the best way to navigate through your learning issues. This machine is a workhorse and you will see just how powerful it is once you have a thorough understanding of it. Sometimes when switching from a different machine it is harder to adjust to the Silver Bullet than if you were just learning it new, because some things you have to "unlearn" and do differently than you are used to. And SCAL WILL accept eps and dxf files as stated earlier, both of which can be exported from AutoCad as stated online.

Again, if you would show or share the file, it might help us see some of the issues you appear to be having. And there are not videos for manufacturing because they are not making them - they are simply doing the work they need to do! To date there have not been requests for such videos.

[Gigi]

Guess we were typing at the same time.

We do not recommend using construction paper - it doesnt cut well and is an inferior product. As far as removing it from the mat, always use a small spatula or credit card or something to lift your material off the mat and you wont have pieces sticking like that. Colored card stock is not the same material as construction paper.

And if the mat is too sticky, you can unsticky it a little by blotting the adhesive with a lint free rag or t-shirt. Personally I like it sticky and am just careful when the mat is new and I am removing material.

[Rusty_Stumps]

I'm attempting to upgrade to the Pro version of SCAL V5. Even have the discount code from SCAL but their systems isn't working. Keeps charging full price even though it shows the discount. Waiting to hear back on that.

Anyway, it has DXF importing which will make a lot of this go easier.

Again thanks for your feedback.

[Gigi]

Yes that is what I shared with you. But you can also import eps files with the regular version of SCAL and you should have access to that format through AutoCad as well - just trying to save you money.

I am sure Brandon will get back to you in a timely manner.

[MeFlick]

Hopefully you can get it sorted and figure out how best to get the vector lines you need for cutting. I did want to reply to one statement you made above, you noted

“As to AutoSketch. Doesn't matter that it's not supported by the AutoCAD any longer it still works and does the job.�

As much as we like to believe our old unsupported programs “still work and does the job� it eventually often, no longer does the job as needed as is true for you here. As you noted further in your posts, the dxf files it generates are “old� and could not be imported into the newer software. You may find this to be true too then for SCAL. However, as Gigi and I both have noted, you can take files from Corel Draw to SCAL in several formats without the need for tracing.you will just have to figure out how to get from point A to C as directly as possible.

Thanks for sharing your long and impressive list of your past working history you have certainly had a long distinguished career. I am afraid, I only listed my long “crafting� history since getting my first cutter about 16 years ago and still missed some of that. My intent was not to question your knowledge or experience in all things, but in doing so was simply to try and show that I do have lots of experience with lots of programs that I was basing my answers on. I do agree, that PC has made improvements to their product and software from the early years, but as you also found, it still has flaws and issues that I find unacceptable. While I have not owned one my self in several years, I do have friends who do and have yet to believe that they have made it as good or better then I can get with other programs and other cutters I already have. I also refuse to be locked to a software that I can only do online. Whaat it does have, the simplicity factor, and the fact that it can easily be purchased in a big box store appeals to the masses. However like you, many of those quickly become disenchanted when they find its limitations. I keep myself updated and informed on them hoping for the day Provocraft eventually figures it out and do what can be done. I just know they are not there yet.

Ah construction paper, yes that will definitely create a mess on a cutting ma and as you learned there is a huge difference between construction paper and card stock when cutting and removing it from a mat. I too attempted that with the first Cricut. What a mess. I wanted to use construction paper because I was cutting things for my kids school and could get it from the school. ☺� Only made that mistake once.

I hope you can figure out a way to get your setup working for you. It sounds like to start, your biggest hurdle is getting your older files into a format for cutting correctly. Hopefully between your Corel Draw (assuming you still have it - you never said) and SCAL you can get things sorted.that issue has nothing to do with the SB, but with getting old files into SCAL. Once you get that sorted, hopefully you can then progress to cutting with the SB. Let us know how you are progressing and what you figure out as it may help someone else with a similar issue in the future,

[Rusty_Stumps]

This is not an issue any more. I can send DXF files from AutoSketch with no problem. I've test cut a number of sheets this way. Vector lines work great. This is with the Pro version of SCA software.
Right now I am trying to sell my company or close it within the next few months. With that we have had a flood of orders that won't let up. Once that is done I will have time to work on the Silver Bullet Pro unit I have. I the meantime it's sitting quietly waiting.
Thanks for the feed back.
Walt

[Gigi]

So glad to hear you were able to figure out how to make it work best for you. That is great.

Good luck with the sale of your company. Eager to see what you create with your new machine when you have the time.

Thanks for letting us know.

[MeFlick]

Glad to hear you have resolved and found that the DXF files generated by your old Autosketch would in fact import into SCAL Pro and work to cut as needed. Glad we were able to point you in the right direction. Good luck with all those orders and selling this company.

[SandieGeek]

2. I expected SCL to use the file imported not to have to trace it. All other software I've used both on the Epilog laser and a Circut Machine did just that.

I did not go through this entire thread and apologies if this point number 2 had already been answered. When you say you imported the PNG file into SCAL did you drag the PNG onto the SCAL's virtual mat? If so, you are not going to get any cut lines.

In order to get the cut lines of the PNGs shape you will have to go to File --> Import and then select the PNG file you would like to import. To emphasize that this only works with PNGs. Any other image type files will have to be traced in SCAL once imported.

I am attaching a few self explanatory screenshots.

[Gigi]

Well you just taught me something. Out of habit, I have always brought jpg and png images into trace and did not realize that you could just import the png and the cut lines would be there. You can also just go to View> Outline and the cut lines will easily show. What I don't like about that (and it can also be an issue with the trace feature, is that it is super node intensive. So I would definitely simplify it a few times to reduce some of the nodes. I do that with almost everything I trace and have not had a cut issue - yet. I supposed there is a first time for everything, but so far, so good!

Thanks for the tip.

[SandieGeek]

You are most welcome! Normally when you do File -> Import if it is good resolution PNG the lines are clean with few nodes. But yeah, I always check the nodes, too and Simplify if needed. Even delete a few manually if I don't like their "faces" lol By that from experience I know they are just trouble makers with no added value to the shape.

[Gigi]